Transparency Watch (TW): Firstly, congratulations on “Living with Corruption.” It is both an excellent tool for raising awareness of corruption and its effects in Africa, and encouraging debate on the issue. Because it shows how corruption pervades African society at every level though, a viewer could be forgiven for feeling that the problem is so entrenched that any attempt to tackle it is futile. How in your opinion can corruption be best tackled?

Sorious Samura (SS): It’s really a very interesting question. I don’t want to sound like I am an expert on dealing with corruption, but for me the problem of corruption is definitely entrenched in Africa, in African society. But I will also hasten to say that I believe that it is not so entrenched that with proper policy it cannot be fixed.

People always say that corruption is one of those problems that are impossible to sort out, and for me as long as people believe that, then it will be. I am not quite sure what the answers are, but I think that both the grassroots and the powerful elite need to know the damage that corruption does to them, how it slows development. People in Africa need to be educated about the moral values that we have lost, institutions need to be strengthened, that is partly the way corruption can be countered. And the West, I don’t like playing the blame game, but those that are doing business with Africa need to change the way they are doing business, people have got to be more accountable, and I think societies, institutions, organisations working in Africa should be held to account. They should be more accountable. That, in my humble opinion, is the way forward to getting out of this mess.

The system is cleverly done in such a way that you are forced to wait for three, four, five months, and it’s done deliberately by the people who work there so you have no choice other than bribe. So it’s all those institutions that we need to look at and strengthen, and of course pay people well and make sure that everyone becomes a watchdog for the other. Only we can sort things out for our children, especially now that the West is busy with their fight against terror and the threat of recession.

In some cases it is the case that ‘might is right,’ but before I delve into that I want to say, corruption is clearly not just an African thing, we have corruption in societies all around the world. There used to be corruption even here in the West, now there are checks and balances though, and the West have managed to improve the fight against corruption, it’s not to say it wasn’t there though. It is not even completely won, but it has improved. Even way back in history in Africa, even before the colonial masters arrived, people used to give bribes using the barter system, but it has today become normal in Africa, it is now entrenched in us, it is now to a large extent acceptable. If you look in the classrooms in many parts of the African continent children are being encouraged to be corrupt, children are taught how to be corrupt from the very grassroots – from the classroom. And so you see it as a normal thing. In the West it would be unheard of, everyone would raise the roof, if children were asked to bring bribes or things, or even have sex with their teachers so that they get promoted, even if they don’t deserve promotion. I am telling you that if that was in the West all hell would break loose, but in parts of Africa it is seen as perfectly normal. It is all those rotten attitudes so embedded in our systems that we have to change, so it is understood that it is not normal and it is not acceptable.

Returning to the might is right, that is also what corruption is about, it is about power – the man who is in a position. To a large extent I believe because most people in Africa are not well paid the scrabbling for bribes is common. The fact is these people are poor and desperate, and as long as people are poor and desperate corruption will continue thriving in those societies. But, it is also a power game - the more powerful people are the more they want from the weak. Even the ordinary porter in the hospital demands bribes because he believes he has power to delay your child from getting treatment.

It [corruption] has become embedded in the system to such a degree that it is the norm, so people hardly complain. I have seen in Zambia when someone stood up against an institution that he felt was corrupt, the rest turned against him because he was delaying people in the queue. So it is a big, big problem and that is why I feel that grassroots, not just class room, grassroots education is the key, so that people know their rights, they know that they are not meant to bribe for things that they ought to get freely. We need a mass campaign in order to turn this fight against corruption round in Africa.

TW: How was the documentary received in Africa?

SS: We try to get most of the films that I do aired in Africa on their stations for free. Like ‘”Living With Aids,” I clearly remember the [Zambian] government saying it should not be shown. The first film I made about Sierra Leone, “Cry Freetown,” the government at the time said, “No, it shouldn’t be shown on the local TV station.” But luckily CNN reaches all these people. Well not all of them, but so many small cinema houses show these films directly because they get CNN and some people – you know some people are getting richer and richer everyday – have CNN. And that is clearly the easiest way the films get seen. This film was not shown in Kenya by local TV stations or in Sierra Leone. We did get some serious responses – e-mails that were written, texts, very long texts and phone calls from Africa saying this is long, long overdue and we thank you for shining a torchlight on stories like this because this is the key, key problem we have in Africa. Most of the wars all play around corruption, because people are desperate and corrupt and are denied a stake, and then that pushes them to fight and so on. But most of what I am telling you about is from the ordinary grassroots people, the politicians don’t want to have these conversations, they don’t want to engage, the business people don’t want to engage, because these are the people who benefit from corruption. It is from the grassroots people, some of the people who are involved in the fight against corruption and the few elite, who frankly speaking want to see a better Africa, that I received a very encouraging response. But obviously from Kenya there were one or two politicians who tried to cry the film down and so did local newspapers, so it was very encouraging to see that there are so many Africans who want to see a different Africa. We are always trying to find ways to make sure the films reach the grassroots people, the voiceless people.

TW: The documentary highlights one prominent politician, Henry Kosgey, and a complaint filed against him to the Kenyan Integrity Centre [the official anti-corruption commission] alleging he stole people’s land through “an irregular deal.” Are you aware of what has happened since?

SS: It is a long process. These people are doing everything they can to get their complaints heard at every level. They had been in the process before we had even contacted them to say that we were making this film. It turns out that their complaint gets to a certain level and then they are told to go to another office.

TW: The story of how John Githongo, who incidentally used to head the Transparency International national chapter in Kenya, fled to the UK after exposing corruption involving politicians at the highest level of government shows the danger people who take a stand against corruption can face. Did you receive any threats or intimidation while filming the documentary or since its release?

SS: You know nobody has asked me this before. Something did happen while we were there filming. There is somebody who is known for his involvement in the killing of, I believe, the foreign affairs minister some time back, during Moi’s time. The allegation was that this was the man who carried out the killing. We used to have people like those in Sierra Leone who do the dirty work for the politicians if anyone messes about with them. According to a local contact we were working with at the time, she hadn’t seen this guy for over two years. So, here we were in this hotel together with my producer, George Waldrum, when she looked around and saw this guy sitting right opposite her staring into her eyes and she started shaking like a leaf. We asked her what was wrong and she said, “I need to go. Now that you are here and I am working with you guys on corruption this guy shows up. I am not going to work with you anymore, I’m sorry, I hope you understand.” She didn’t get involved in the film after that at all, this is how scary it was. Once that had happened you know, we found it extremely difficult even to sleep in our hotel rooms, so if that was intimidation it worked. Even in Kibera you had the feeling that they were going to come for you at any time. But apart from that I didn’t have direct confrontation with any authority except Kosgey where he made the remark “you don’t know Kenya,” which together with what happened earlier, felt like a warning, so we had to wrap up quickly and leave the area. So I understand why someone like John left like a real marathon man.

Other than that, I had Sierra Leoneans in the UK who were supporting the government at the time who actually accused me of trying to sabotage their government.

Thank god nothing happened to any of our local contacts or any of the people who appeared in the film. On one hand we were lucky that the authorities were focused on the elections, but on the other hand it was a shame in the way that they didn’t pay that much attention to the film, even though some of them will get CNN. That is perhaps why they didn’t get the warning signs, I actually said in the film that if they are not careful with the level of corruption here it will affect them in the same way it did the people in Sierra Leone and sadly that came to bear.

TW: Do you think that corruption played a role in the violence that followed the Kenyan elections in December 2007?

SS: Why not? I think so. It’s not my field, but I think the people had enough. Eric [who Samura lives with in Kibera in the film] explained in the film that the chief there had been an ordinary friend, but the minute he got appointed he started harassing them, making money, and has now become a different person.

Even though, when the fighting started, people were saying it is tribal, but I don’t think it was. Maybe a tribal element was used cleverly by the politicians, but I think those people were fed up with how the government was stealing every little thing that was meant for them. I find it tragic that it is the grassroots people again who pay the price, because if we went to Kenya now and looked at a registry of those killed, there would be none related to Odinga or Kibaki, that is the saddest thing when these things happen - not of course that I would wish for anyone to die.

TW: For many Western viewers it will be shocking to learn that aid money can be siphoned off into private pockets, effectively widening the gap between the rich and the poor. Do you think this issue is sufficiently discussed and addressed?

SS: I clearly think those that give should know that it is their right to demand answers or to monitor where it goes, especially tax payers. Sadly, it looks like that for many people who give it is just about, let me say, satisfying their consciences that they have done something. I think it should go beyond that, I think people should be able to say: “You know we are giving, we need to know, we need answers, we need receipts, we need to see.” They need to monitor whatever they give to these countries and that will then enforce proper accountability. People who are giving deserve to know if their money or aid is reaching the grassroots people.

In business in the West we have found a way to answer this problem in a simplistic way: I used to work for Burger King in the UK and they used to have what they called a “mystery shopper.” The mystery shopper poses as an ordinary customer and sees if all the policies are being correctly carried out. I think this is what aid agencies need to do. They need to get mystery shoppers who will go to all those villages and find out if the grain of rice or corn, or the money that is meant to build the hospital, is reaching the people, it’s as simple as that. I’m not sure whether the NGOs and aid companies will really want to come off of their high horses though. I was surprised to learn from friends and others in Sierra Leone that they had never even seen aid workers. Apparently nobody has come to find out whether the projects that the money was meant for have been fulfilled. If you sit in all those air-conditioned offices there is no way you are going to find out whether this money has been implemented or used properly, and people out here who pay taxes and give deserve to know how their money is being spent.

TW: In the film, a former head of the Sierra Leonean Anti-Corruption Commission, Val Collier, explains why he believes “aid money is seen as fair game by the elite of Sierra Leone.” As a result he finds Bob Geldof’s talk of making poverty history a “waste of time” and that fighting corruption is the key. What is your opinion on this?

SS: The truth is, I think as an African, that he [Bob Geldof] has done his own bit to try and highlight the problem in Africa. However, I believe there has been a lot that he and his team or genuine people like him have not got quite right, so I understand where Val Collier is coming from. They still, or he still, believes in more aid to help sort Africa’s problems and I am one of those who strongly doesn’t believe that.

We need the type of aid which will empower Africans, so that in the long-term they will be able to look after themselves. We need the sort of aid that will not just be creating more employment for Westerners, or young Western graduates. It’s just about empowerment. That is partly why I agree with someone like Val who says if you want to really and truly end poverty you must make corruption history first, because the aid that is going there, especially the cash aid, is corrupted over and over again and, even worse, it comes back to the West into bank accounts.

TW: Ernest Bai Koroma became president of Sierra Leone in September 2007 promising “zero tolerance” for corruption in the country. Your documentary shows that fulfilling this pledge will clearly not be easy. Have your experiences of corruption in Africa made you cynical of such promises?

SS: I think cynical is quite extreme, because the truth is if I were cynical I would not be in this job! There is no doubt that there is hope, just the fact that part of his election campaign was against corruption and that most people voted for him on the basis of this promise is hope in itself. The people have shown that they are fed up with corruption, the only question is whether the president then delivers on his promises. I still want to be hopeful, but there are plenty of facts that need to be mentioned. Many people who go into politics today in Africa see it as a form of investment, they see politics as a way to gain wealth and power. They don’t understand that they are meant to serve their people. There are some Africans who live in the West who go back during elections and support specific parties, they pour in money and if that party wins they expect to get positions or business concessions so that they can reap the money back and make profits on the money they believe they have invested. That is a major concern for me, but the fact that these people have voted him [Koroma] in on this ticket shows that they know that corruption is in office and they want it sorted. I think that if someone like Ernest or other heads of state come into office on similar tickets and don’t deliver, they know that the people will kick them out after their term runs out. I am hopefully that in countries like Sierra Leone that the message of ‘respect for the ordinary people’ will slowly begin to filter through. I don’t think that Ernest will get more than one term if he fails to deliver because the people are becoming more and more informed, ambitious and therefore empowered – that is hope for me.

If you don’t have the finance and you don’t have the money to look after these people what do you do? You start taking money, you start accepting bribes so that you can continue to satisfy all those people around you. The reason being that if you don’t you become an outcast. Even your own family and neighbours will hate you and want nothing to do with you. You become public enemy number one. In the next election, if you are a good guy and you were not giving because you did not want to take bribes then you will go, but if you want to stay then you have to look after all these people. There is no doubt that Ernest Koroma will have all these demands to deal with. He maybe stands a chance of retaining his presidency if he tries to break away in such a way that will put fear in people so that they understand that he stands for no nonsense and that he sets examples. The very people who helped to get him there, ironically because he campaigned against corruption, have these expectations of him. It is “my brother’s keeper” that is part of Africa’s biggest problem with corruption. We have to break this chain. I think that the people in Botswana have successfully managed to deal with this cycle and embrace traditional democratic values, which has helped them to push corruption aside. They had people with the political will who had the values, who looked at the resources and said “let’s use them to benefit the people” and that is what has made a difference. It is not that we don’t have it in us, the Africans, we do, it’s just a matter of making sure that we find people with the willpower to turn these things around and set clear examples.

TW: What motivates you to make documentaries?

SS: As an African I want to go back home someday, but I want to go a place where I can at least live peacefully. As I was growing up, I would have given anything for people who were storytellers to help tell our stories. Fortunately I have being given a chance by a small group of wonderful people at Insight News who just want to leave this world a little better than they met it. So whenever I go back and I see the suffering caused by corruption, I see people dying because of poverty, senseless wars, preventable diseases that are destroying the continent, I tell myself that I have to do something. I’ve got to use my own weapon, my camera and crew, to tell these stories and hope the rest of the world engages.

What I would have hoped to bring out in this film is the corruption at the very highest level. That is the corruption that people I have spoken to while making this film believes brings down governments, economies and makes the life of ordinary people hell.

Of course I miss my wife and kids when I am away and I am grateful for their support, but I also know how lucky we are, that our children are born in the UK where they get a good education and health care and social life even when I am away.

It has become a mission for me and although you can’t measure effect, you just hope that by shining a light on these issues and putting a human face to the suffering that you are contributing in some way. When ordinary people come up to you and thank you, the way you’re appreciated by these people is worth far more than money. It is because of people like these, ordinary, voiceless, defenceless people that I keep telling these stories. I owe it to them. They are my real heroes.